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Maverick
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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2008 09:13:22 pm    Post subject: SPLIT: (was "christmas music") religion & christmas Reply with quote

I don't care, but for the fact that I want my Christmas music to be about Jesus Christ, not about snowmen, mistletoe, Santa Claus, or anything else that's un-related.

Or have we degraded to a place where Christmas can't be about that anymore for fear of being exclusive instead of inclusive, or hurting someone else's feelings?

Don't even get me started in the pagan roots of this holiday (it sure isn't a holy day).


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2008 10:27:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well this thread has just been murdered Crying lol

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CloakedKilla
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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2008 03:40:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maverick wrote:
I don't care, but for the fact that I want my Christmas music to be about Jesus Christ, not about snowmen, mistletoe, Santa Claus, or anything else that's un-related.

Or have we degraded to a place where Christmas can't be about that anymore for fear of being exclusive instead of inclusive, or hurting someone else's feelings?

Don't even get me started in the pagan roots of this holiday (it sure isn't a holy day).


I think the holiday can be celebrated even without a specific focus on Christ...IMO, a display of his basic teachings (charity, kindness to your neighbors, solidarity among people, etc) is just as important as "the birth of Christ". Of course I take an extremely liberal and open view of the Bible, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Wink

Though, either way you look at it (as a celebration of the birth of Christ or just a time of peace and kindness - or both) it's being eroded. People are being trampled and killed at Wal-Mart by selfish morons trying to get the best deals. I heard a woman at a register the other day YELLING at the cashier because they ran out of some kind of dumb ass toy and now "Christmas is ruined for her daughter" (apparently that individual cashier manages the entire inventory). But that's what happens when a society becomes too individualistic.




dude
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i'm crying
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i just put aftershave on my nuts
Maverick
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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2008 11:11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CloakedKilla wrote:
I think the holiday can be celebrated even without a specific focus on Christ...IMO


In the same way so many people wish to take a PURELY Religious principle and turn it into something secular (marriage), the general population has taken what is PURELY religious in nature and turned it into something secular. I do not understand what the secular world's fascination is with taking the religious and turning it secular.

Thread - hijacked.


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CloakedKilla
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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2008 11:48:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maverick wrote:

In the same way so many people wish to take a PURELY Religious principle and turn it into something secular (marriage), the general population has taken what is PURELY religious in nature and turned it into something secular. I do not understand what the secular world's fascination is with taking the religious and turning it secular.

Thread - hijacked.


I would say because the point behind the religious tradition is in fact secular principles. Aside from the being saved and going to Heaven part, most of Christ's teachings had little to do with anything specifically religious. And I could start a whole argument with you on marriage, I would claim that it was a secular arrangement that was later made religious. Wink




dude
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i'm crying
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i just put aftershave on my nuts
Maverick
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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2008 12:46:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CloakedKilla wrote:
I would say because the point behind the religious tradition is in fact secular principles. Aside from the being saved and going to Heaven part, most of Christ's teachings had little to do with anything specifically religious. And I could start a whole argument with you on marriage, I would claim that it was a secular arrangement that was later made religious. Wink


You can claim all you want, that doesn't make it true. From Adam and Eve, marriage existed.

All of Yeshua's teachings were about faith and related to Adonai. Give me an example of one of Christ's teachings that was secular, I know you can't.


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2008 02:50:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maverick wrote:


You can claim all you want, that doesn't make it true. From Adam and Eve, marriage existed.

All of Yeshua's teachings were about faith and related to Adonai. Give me an example of one of Christ's teachings that was secular, I know you can't.


If you accept the literal story of Genesis, yes. However the majority of the world does not, so it's a bit arrogant to claim that all marriage comes from this singular world-view that doesn't actually have any backing evidence aside from self-reference.

Show me a single teaching of Jesus aside from the going to Heaven part that cannot be found in another religion, in philosophy, or in other secular texts. "Turn the other cheek", "love thy neighbor", etc. are all certainly within religious context in the Bible, but that doesn't mean the underlying moral lesson is specifically religious.




dude
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i'm crying
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i just put aftershave on my nuts
Maverick
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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008 03:51:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CloakedKilla wrote:
Maverick wrote:
You can claim all you want, that doesn't make it true. From Adam and Eve, marriage existed.

All of Yeshua's teachings were about faith and related to Adonai. Give me an example of one of Christ's teachings that was secular, I know you can't.


If you accept the literal story of Genesis, yes. However the majority of the world does not, so it's a bit arrogant to claim that all marriage comes from this singular world-view that doesn't actually have any backing evidence aside from self-reference.

Show me a single teaching of Jesus aside from the going to Heaven part that cannot be found in another religion, in philosophy, or in other secular texts. "Turn the other cheek", "love thy neighbor", etc. are all certainly within religious context in the Bible, but that doesn't mean the underlying moral lesson is specifically religious.


Even if you don't take the Genesis story literally, it was still instituted by Him. It has always been religious in nature, and it wasn't until this past century that it suddenly became a question. Arrogance? It's really arrogant to think that the Bible is the only thing that supports the Bible. Have you ever heard the concept of irreducible complexity? What about the Bombardier Beetle? It takes more faith to believe that we are a cosmic accident than it does to believe that there's an Intelligent Designer.

If you want to turn this into a debate about the veracity of the Bible, I'm not even going to waste my time after this post; He has proven Himself through His creation, just look at how we reproduce and tell me we evolved from cells which replicate by themselves into organisms that replicate through sexual means. You mean to tell me that's an accident? How can you explain that on an evolutionary level when it's much less work to stay a single cell and replicate like that? What about Y-Chromosome Adam, and Mitochondrial Eve? We've been able to re-create what they think would be an ideal "primordial soup" to create protein strains, but 1) how do we know that's what the earth was like back then? 2) where do you go from protein to life?

If life always takes the easiest path why would it go to such great lengths? Why do athiests always personify life and nature yet refuse to acknowledge an intelligence with God? They ascribe intelligence to nature, but not to God.

We used to think that it took millions of years to create petrol, diamonds, and coal, and we can now produce those things in a matter of months.

How do you explain sea shells and fossils of sea creatures on the tops of some of the highest mountaintops in the world, ALL OVER the world? Could it have been a global flood?

They used to believe that King David never existed because of a lack of archeological evidence, but have now found scrolls from Babylon which have proven that there was in fact a Hebrew King David. Did you know that Saddam Husein tried rebuilding ancient Babylon, but in Scripture it is written that Babylon would never again be inhabited, and that's when we went to war with them during the Kuwait invasion under George Bush Sr.? What about the Prophecies that said that Israel would become a nation again in a SINGLE DAY, which happened at the conclusion of WWII?

What about how the Bible describes that the air has weight from Job 28:
Bible wrote:
23 God understands its way,
And He knows its place.

24 For He looks to the ends of the earth,
And sees under the whole heavens,

25 To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.


Or how the hydrological cycle flows from Job 36:
Bible wrote:
27 For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,

28 Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.


What about how atoms stay together? How does the nucleus, which consists of like charges (protons, because neutrons are of no consequence) stay together and not explode apart? Why does adding or removing a neutron from some elements change the chemical composition of a molecule? What about the difference between hydrogen and helium? One proton, one neutron, yet two COMPLETELY different elements? How does that work? Where did that come from?

There are more books written about Yeshua haMashiach than any other subject in the history of the world, and the Bible is STILL the number one seller, of all time, since it was first published.

You would like to tip toe around the subjects that I gave you and then pose some questions to me. Answer mine first: Give me an example of one of Christ's teachings that was secular.

So don't start spewing some vile garbage your broke professors gave you about where we came from when they are teaching a bunch of theories that THEY have NO proof of. "Modern Science" is WAY behind the Bible, it's NEVER been wrong.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008 05:35:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As my Christmas gift to the community, I'm hereby abstaining from this thread. I understand where Nick is coming from, and respect Brett's perspective.

As a bonus homily, let us join hands and pray that Pierre Thomas breaks a leg before Sunday's game so he can spend the evening with his family around the Christmas tree instead of amassing huge fantasy points and sinking my chances at a second UTGaymers Title. Peace on earth, and goodwill to Frank Gore! Razz


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CloakedKilla
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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008 08:15:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maverick wrote:
CloakedKilla wrote:
Maverick wrote:
You can claim all you want, that doesn't make it true. From Adam and Eve, marriage existed.

All of Yeshua's teachings were about faith and related to Adonai. Give me an example of one of Christ's teachings that was secular, I know you can't.


If you accept the literal story of Genesis, yes. However the majority of the world does not, so it's a bit arrogant to claim that all marriage comes from this singular world-view that doesn't actually have any backing evidence aside from self-reference.

Show me a single teaching of Jesus aside from the going to Heaven part that cannot be found in another religion, in philosophy, or in other secular texts. "Turn the other cheek", "love thy neighbor", etc. are all certainly within religious context in the Bible, but that doesn't mean the underlying moral lesson is specifically religious.


Even if you don't take the Genesis story literally, it was still instituted by Him. It has always been religious in nature, and it wasn't until this past century that it suddenly became a question. Arrogance? It's really arrogant to think that the Bible is the only thing that supports the Bible. Have you ever heard the concept of irreducible complexity? What about the Bombardier Beetle? It takes more faith to believe that we are a cosmic accident than it does to believe that there's an Intelligent Designer.

If you want to turn this into a debate about the veracity of the Bible, I'm not even going to waste my time after this post; He has proven Himself through His creation, just look at how we reproduce and tell me we evolved from cells which replicate by themselves into organisms that replicate through sexual means. You mean to tell me that's an accident? How can you explain that on an evolutionary level when it's much less work to stay a single cell and replicate like that? What about Y-Chromosome Adam, and Mitochondrial Eve? We've been able to re-create what they think would be an ideal "primordial soup" to create protein strains, but 1) how do we know that's what the earth was like back then? 2) where do you go from protein to life?

If life always takes the easiest path why would it go to such great lengths? Why do athiests always personify life and nature yet refuse to acknowledge an intelligence with God? They ascribe intelligence to nature, but not to God.

We used to think that it took millions of years to create petrol, diamonds, and coal, and we can now produce those things in a matter of months.

How do you explain sea shells and fossils of sea creatures on the tops of some of the highest mountaintops in the world, ALL OVER the world? Could it have been a global flood?

They used to believe that King David never existed because of a lack of archeological evidence, but have now found scrolls from Babylon which have proven that there was in fact a Hebrew King David. Did you know that Saddam Husein tried rebuilding ancient Babylon, but in Scripture it is written that Babylon would never again be inhabited, and that's when we went to war with them during the Kuwait invasion under George Bush Sr.? What about the Prophecies that said that Israel would become a nation again in a SINGLE DAY, which happened at the conclusion of WWII?

What about how the Bible describes that the air has weight from Job 28:
Bible wrote:
23 God understands its way,
And He knows its place.

24 For He looks to the ends of the earth,
And sees under the whole heavens,

25 To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.


Or how the hydrological cycle flows from Job 36:
Bible wrote:
27 For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,

28 Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.


What about how atoms stay together? How does the nucleus, which consists of like charges (protons, because neutrons are of no consequence) stay together and not explode apart? Why does adding or removing a neutron from some elements change the chemical composition of a molecule? What about the difference between hydrogen and helium? One proton, one neutron, yet two COMPLETELY different elements? How does that work? Where did that come from?

There are more books written about Yeshua haMashiach than any other subject in the history of the world, and the Bible is STILL the number one seller, of all time, since it was first published.

You would like to tip toe around the subjects that I gave you and then pose some questions to me. Answer mine first: Give me an example of one of Christ's teachings that was secular.

So don't start spewing some vile garbage your broke professors gave you about where we came from when they are teaching a bunch of theories that THEY have NO proof of. "Modern Science" is WAY behind the Bible, it's NEVER been wrong.


In this entire post you're basically operating on the "stuff is so complex therefore God did it" premise which is a tad ridiculous.

Irreducible complexity? Yes I've heard it. It's hallowed by bunk "creation scientists" like Kent Hovind that distort legitimate theories and explanations, then argue against these warped distortions that don't at all represent reality and claim victory.

Let's start with this basic idea of irreducible complexity. It basically states that it's "a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."We do have things that are irreducibly complex, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have developed. Take for instance the language and our ability to speak. It is an irreducibly complex system within the body. However, our body uses parts that are unrelated to the function of language to construct it. Organs that are used for the respiratory and digestive systems are combined to form this system. The lungs are used to draw in air, the vocal cords in your throat vibrate at certain frequencies to produce sound, your mouth is used to control the release of air and vibration to form syllables.

Take any one of the parts that process language and remove it, and the entire system fails. You might think, "What a wonder that all these parts are so well matched! Evolution can't explain the origins of each part, since each part by itself can't do anything without the rest of the system!" Except that these parts have functions other than the process of language. Each part became adapted from an already existing part that does in fact by itself serve a function. Lungs adapted from cells specializing in aeration and respiratory processes, forming more complex tissues and eventually an organ. Evolutionary explanations exist for pretty much irreducibly complex system in the body.

The Great Flood doesn't explain seashells on top of mountains. A Great Flood occurring in the last 6000 years would have left such an enormous amount of geologic and biological markers that it would be self-evident. However pretty much the entire field of geology, archaeology, and biology has ruled out a Biblical flood. I can refer you to a lengthy essay I wrote not long ago dealing with just a few of many inconsistencies. A multi-billion year process of plate convergence and divergence turning oceanic zones into mountains explains billion year old seashells on top of mountains better than a giant flood 6000 years ago.

I'm not arguing against the miracle of life, I'm simply trying to argue that the miracle of life doesn't automatically translate into a literal and inerrant Bible nor does it translate into God-sanctioned marriage. I simply don't believe marriage came from Adam and Eve, I think it evolved as society became more developed through history. Marriage used to be a property exchange of women between men. I think what was a purely secular property exchange was sanctified through religion...as I think Christmas was made. You've said you're aware of the pagan origins of Christmas. The Winter Solstice and pagan festivals that just so happened to be on December 25th of each year in many old European traditions.

But it's not just a European tradition. Winter festivals are big in nearly all cultures worldwide. The "spirit of Christmas" - gift-giving, looking out for the poor, taking care of family, etc. is a sentiment that is really evident in most religious holidays that occur during this time. I think religion has a tendency to take things from society and sanctify them...especially when they're good things we'd like to continue. Religion makes sure that Christmas is celebrated each year...I wouldn't blame secularists on the corporatization of Christmas, I'd blame the nature of capitalism. I don't think any religion can lay claim to common hospitality, and I think that's one of the major undertones we're meant to remember in Christmas. You seem to be operating on the theological view that the purpose of Christ was to save and assure eternal life, whereas I take the view that his purpose was to act as a moral example for how we live our lives here. And I don't think there's anything specifically religious about those moral teachings outside of the former.




dude
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i'm crying
Sephirrrrrrrrrroth says:
i just put aftershave on my nuts
Maverick
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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008 08:39:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydrological Cycle - written 3500 years before modern science understood it
Air having weight - written 3500 years before modern science understood it
Mitochondrial Eve - written 4000 years before modern science understood it
Y-Chromosome Adam - written 4000 years before modern science understood it
Fulfilled Prophecies - How does the book of Isaiah name by name the person who 500 years later would conquer the Babylonians (Cyrus), that's just one of hundreds of prophecies
Fossilization process, coal, diamonds, petrol - all taking a much smaller amount of time than previously thought
Personification of Evolution/Nature - ultimate hypocrisy. evolutionists want to ascribe an intelligence to the process of evolution but rule out an intelligent designer. Even if you disagree with the premise of the Bible, you CAN'T rule out the premise of an Intelligent Designer. You can't look at the functions of nature and say that it's just CHANCE. That is ridiculous.
CloakedKiller wrote:
We do have things that are irreducibly complex, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have developed.

They couldn't have without an intelligent force driving it. You can't explain everything by chance.

By the way, the flood took place 5000 years ago, not 6000.

So if you don't argue Miracles, then you must realize that miracles are not scientifically grounded, then you must acknowledge SOMETHING that you cannot prove the existence of directly, only its effects in this world.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008 11:02:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about the fact that:

Ancient Hebrews knew that the world was suspended in space:
Bible Job 26 wrote:
7 He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.


Or that the world is a sphere and not flat:
Bible Isaiah 40 wrote:
21 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,


How about how they understood the concept of being made from invisible things:
Bible Hebrews 11 wrote:
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


They still haven't figured out how the nucleus of an atom doesn't just fly apart, and how adding protons neutrons and electrons changes the composition of a molecule. But still, HOW did we get from proteins, to more complex proteins, to life? They can make proteins from a "soup" of unknown, but they still can't make life from nothing.


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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008 03:00:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I said I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I've since received something that is possibly germane to this larger topic.

My preacher, Dan Wolf, is a guy a little younger than me, who loves reading my science fiction serial novel chapters, and who is my supergroup buddy in City of Heroes. He's into comic books, sci-fi, and the same movies I am. He's also one of the better ministers I know, and I'm really blessed to have him in my circle of friends. He sent me a link to a snippet video from Penn Jillette. In the clip, Penn, a noted atheist and all around smart guy, talks about the impact of a Christian who gave him one of those small New Testament Bibles with some of the Psalms and Proverbs from the Old Testament. Penn then says something of great honesty, that while he believes there is no God, and that religion is responsible for some very bad things, that he doesn't not respect people who don't proselytize. He says that if you believe something beyond a shadow of a doubt, he expects you to sell out to it, to do everything in your power to share that with others, even others who don't maintain the same belief system.

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=245243

I've been very careful not to proselytize here. Or rather, I try to let my character proselytize for me, so if people are interested, they can come to my to initiate the dialogue instead of having me try to cram my opinion down somebody else's throat. Also, I think it is a sign of respect to the community where I am interacting not to introduce a topic that is radically different than the reason for the community. So I'm torn.

One of the things I take from Penn's talk was the manner in which the proselytizing was conducted. It was done in person, it was very respectful, and it was delivered in such a way to build up rather than tear down.

So I'll put it out there. I'm not much into apologetics, I don't have the temperament or the memory to frame much of a reasoned debate. I'm famously ADD, and lassoing my flitting attention is infamously difficult. However, I do believe in the God of the Bible, and live my life as if all of that is true, and I have stories that convince me of the veracity of that book. However, I also believe that what convinced me is specific to me, and that I can't offer you a 'proof,' that everyone must face their own crisis of faith and decide for themselves what is true, how things work, and what forces are at work here on our world and swirling around our lives.

If anyone is interested in talking about such things, my contact information is all over the place. Hit me up and I'd be happy to try to share something of my story or my opinion. There are far better advocates for genuine Christianity, but you may not know them, and you kind of know me, so I'll be happy to give it a shot. I'd be happy to pray with you or for you.

I'm not ashamed of my faith, however, I believe in being a good neighbor, and that frames when and how I share my belief system. I do care about everyone here enough to share this with you, but also respect everyone here enough not to smash you over the head with it in the process.

I'd like to make one point - and I can hardly believe I'm saying this as an RoA guy and a BiO guy - I have to give some grudging respect to Mav, here. He's as outspoken as ever, but I've seen a change in him from then to now. Mav is still Mav, but he's also different, he's undergone some kind of life change that I find startling and intriguing. It's like the holy war I had going with Sephiroth only to find out that he was not only one of the most intelligent guys I knew, he was one of the best people I knew. Seph played mind games with me, with all of us, but his greatest trick was in creating the greatest griefer persona I've ever come across. He slipped up by demonstrating that he was actually this really smart, sensible guy underneath. I've never seen anything like him before or since. I'm just glad he doesn't come around here any more so I can stop losing to him in the fantasy football finals year after year. (I'm pretty sure clumsy reverse psychology won't drag him back here, but, hell, it's worth a shot.)

Where was I? Oh, yeah. If Mav, with all his bulldog brashness and quirky passions, can find God, anybody can. I find that fascinating and encouraging. (But I'm still not giving him my phone number. "I love you, man, but you can't have my Bud Lite.") Wink

I'm interested in learning what y'all believe. I believe to proselytize effectively, one must not be an a$$ about it. I try not to be an a$$, but I'm not always successful. It can be a terrible thing to think you know the truth, and I really want to be careful with how I handle myself. I was not always that smart about such things.

So that's me and what I believe. I'm not going to start any other threads about that here, because this is not my place, and I'm not that way. You know me by now, and you know where to find me. If you're interested, track me down and we'll talk. If not, tip your waitress and enjoy the ride.


Johne (Phy) Cook | Overlord, Ray Gun Revival
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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2008 03:37:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could find your phone number well enough if I chose to dial them one by one, and then you'd have to lie to me. I had it once before, but have since changed phones and it didn't make the switch.

I appreciate your comments. God says to hate what He hates, and love what He loves. Now while we always want to, "love the sinner, hate the sin", sometimes you have to go "to guns".

In the end, I'm very passionate about my faith. And in the very end, I will stand in judgment before One. If all I can do is plant a seed, whether or not it grows I have no control over, then I've done my Spiritual Duty.

Johne, there will be a time where Apologetics will be of no consequence, because we won't be given the opportunity to defend our faith. Some seed works on some people, and with others you need a different kind of seed. If we are to be fishers of men, pick the lure appropriately. As the fisherman, it's our job to know which lure to use when. I made a decision a long time ago that I would not have an answer for lack of knowledge or understanding. Hashem has blessed me with a good memory, and while I am not a Hebrew, I am grafted in. I understand the fact that Yeshua was a Hebrew, and that Hashem's laws were given to us through the Hebrews. If the only proof of my faith is my obedience, praise Adonai!

Brett, I love you just as you are and have never changed how I treated you regardless of anything. I love you too much, however, to leave you in your ignorance. If that's my agape for you, imagine the kind of true agape that comes from Hashem!


* Hashem means literally "The Name" in Hebrew
** Adonai literally means "The Lord" in Hebrew
*** Yeshua is the Hebrew name of Jesus
**** In Greek, there are three words for the English "love". Agape which is Godly love, Phileo, which is brotherly love, and Eros, which is physical love


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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2008 12:36:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maverick wrote:
I could find your phone number well enough if I chose to dial them one by one, and then you'd have to lie to me. I had it once before, but have since changed phones and it didn't make the switch.

I appreciate your comments. God says to hate what He hates, and love what He loves. Now while we always want to, "love the sinner, hate the sin", sometimes you have to go "to guns".

In the end, I'm very passionate about my faith. And in the very end, I will stand in judgment before One. If all I can do is plant a seed, whether or not it grows I have no control over, then I've done my Spiritual Duty.

Johne, there will be a time where Apologetics will be of no consequence, because we won't be given the opportunity to defend our faith. Some seed works on some people, and with others you need a different kind of seed. If we are to be fishers of men, pick the lure appropriately. As the fisherman, it's our job to know which lure to use when. I made a decision a long time ago that I would not have an answer for lack of knowledge or understanding. Hashem has blessed me with a good memory, and while I am not a Hebrew, I am grafted in. I understand the fact that Yeshua was a Hebrew, and that Hashem's laws were given to us through the Hebrews. If the only proof of my faith is my obedience, praise Adonai!

Brett, I love you just as you are and have never changed how I treated you regardless of anything. I love you too much, however, to leave you in your ignorance. If that's my agape for you, imagine the kind of true agape that comes from Hashem!


* Hashem means literally "The Name" in Hebrew
** Adonai literally means "The Lord" in Hebrew
*** Yeshua is the Hebrew name of Jesus
**** In Greek, there are three words for the English "love". Agape which is Godly love, Phileo, which is brotherly love, and Eros, which is physical love


I've never heard the word 'Hashem' before. Cool.

My number changed when I transferred over to AT&T when I got my iPhone. I sincerely doubt anybody here but Bluto and maybe Tech has it, but that's less because I'm secretive than I'm whatchacallit, ADD. I should give it to Frag. I miss talking to my RoA family.

God loves UT. He must. It's what brought all of us together here. Wink


Johne (Phy) Cook | Overlord, Ray Gun Revival
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