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SharpShooter
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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2004 11:18:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phy wrote:


We were already in Iraq by the time it was generally agreed that we weren't finding WMDs in the quantities we expected.

Let me ask you a question - if a murderer has holed himself up in a house and has gassed people who have trespassed on his property before, would you walk up to the door and expect to be welcomed in, or would you look at what happened in the past and make decisions based on the best available information?

They kill murderers in Texas all the time. Wink

Let me ask you a question - do you really believe this war is only about Halliburton?

Let's be honest, here - the "war on drugs" isn't a war. The "war on poverty" isn't a war. At present, the only actual war that I know that we are engaged in is in Iraq. These other issues are of great importance domestically, sure, but they aren't a war any more than two football teams meeting head to head is a "war". We torture that term to mean almost anything, from marketing to struggling to get up in the morning, and it diminishes the primary term and its primary meaning.


Why would you walk to his door? What I would do is get someone that has a right and proper equiptment to do so. Which in this case UN forces. UN supported the war in Afghanistan, why? because we have a substantial proof that Al-Qaeda is a terorism group and have, will, and doing the act of terorism. Why were we in Iraq to begin with? I thought it's because there were WMDs. You said we were already in Iraq when we weren't finding WMDs, why were we still there when we had agreed upon it? Saddam is not stupid....he could've launch the WMDs (if he have it) on the allies bases in Kuwait or all around the Middle East. Why didn't he eventhough he'd received ultimatum? He has nothing to loose...He knew he would loose the fight either ways. If the "war" against drug is not a "war" then what is it? As far as I'm concerned the war in Iraq is actually an invasion not liberation mission or act of self defense. The war is not only about Haliburton but who benefited from it? you? me? our childrens? I believe the questions that I asked have to be answered to come into conclusion to see if the "war" is justifiable. I would agree with Ska. If Iraqis didn't asked to be freed, why did we even used that excuse now?


"Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts" - Albert Einstein
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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2004 11:43:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure there's an Iraqi somewhere thanking the US for freeing them. Well, if we ever decided to liberate Cuba, *this* Cuban would be thanking the US for the rest of Cuba.

How many Iraqi's have to be thankful before you get the idea that Saddam's regime was a bad one and needed to be toppled over? Where are your ethics, morality, compassion?

Listen to this:

http://www.eig4life.com/files/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

An Iraqi citizen, definitely thankful for the liberation of Iraq.


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 12:25:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SharpShooter wrote:
Why would you walk to his door? What I would do is get someone that has a right and proper equiptment to do so. Which in this case UN forces. UN supported the war in Afghanistan, why? because we have a substantial proof that Al-Qaeda is a terorism group and have, will, and doing the act of terorism. Why were we in Iraq to begin with? I thought it's because there were WMDs. You said we were already in Iraq when we weren't finding WMDs, why were we still there when we had agreed upon it? Saddam is not stupid....he could've launch the WMDs (if he have it) on the allies bases in Kuwait or all around the Middle East. Why didn't he eventhough he'd received ultimatum? He has nothing to loose...He knew he would loose the fight either ways. If the "war" against drug is not a "war" then what is it? As far as I'm concerned the war in Iraq is actually an invasion not liberation mission or act of self defense. The war is not only about Haliburton but who benefited from it? you? me? our childrens? I believe the questions that I asked have to be answered to come into conclusion to see if the "war" is justifiable. I would agree with Ska. If Iraqis didn't asked to be freed, why did we even used that excuse now?


He's a murderer, duh. UN Forces? Please. The ineffectiveness of the UN is a whole 'nother thread.

Saddam expected the US people not to support our military and our military to fold at the first instance of being bloodied by his Special Republican Guard (not to be confused with the more mundane Republican Guard, which was expected to fold) and the Saddam Fedayyeen (a thug militia built by his thug sons). He was too arrogant, and he paid the ultimate price - ignominy.

We were there in Iraq, in part, because of the WMDs (that everybody thought he had, not just the US) and because of the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda (which does retain some veracity but hasn't yielded the sort of brash smoking gun that will convince everyone). Also, it was thought that bringing democracy to Iraq would stabilize the region by demonstrating that the US could come in, clean out a bloody dictator, and leave again, with the people finally in control of their own destiny.

As for the mind of Saddam, well, nobody understands that to this day - he's clearly got his own agenda and own way of thinking.

The stance against drugs is very loose at best. There are some token measures being taken, but they are half-hearted at best. Drugs are allowed as long as you're not caught with them, and even then, only very egregious instances are stomped out. If the President went after druglords and countries that allow them the way he's going after Terrorists, you can be sure our history would be very different. The muslims might even be on our side in that, who's to say. But druglords didn't kill thousands of innocent American civilians in the light of day and terrorists did.

As far as the definition of "war", we've been at war with Iraq since Gulf War I, there has never been a cessation of that distinction. And whether you want to pick nits and refer to the war as an invasion, yes, there was an invasion as part of the war, "A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties." That were at war is not open to debate. *Why* we are and for how long are open topics, but not *whether* we are.

Yes, the war against terrorism is to benefit America (specifically) and the world (globally). The War in Iraq and Afghanistan likely won't be the only fronts in the war, but we have all already benefited by countries like Libya ducking out of the terrorism biz. Other than the Anthrax attacks (which have not been solved but which are suspected to be the actions of a domestic source - Al Qaeda has not taken responsibility for them), there have been no successful terrorist attacks in America since the start of the war. I'd call that beneficial.

As for Halliburton, it is true that they are the subject of much strutiny. I won't bother defending them - they have lawyers for that. I'll merely state that I don't personally find credible evidence to suggest that this war was waged merely to line their pockets, a frankly absurd notion.


Johne (Phy) Cook | Overlord, Ray Gun Revival
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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 12:31:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maverick wrote:
I'm sure there's an Iraqi somewhere thanking the US for freeing them. Well, if we ever decided to liberate Cuba, *this* Cuban would be thanking the US for the rest of Cuba.

How many Iraqi's have to be thankful before you get the idea that Saddam's regime was a bad one and needed to be toppled over? Where are your ethics, morality, compassion?

Listen to this:

http://www.eig4life.com/files/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

An Iraqi citizen, definitely thankful for the liberation of Iraq.


That's not the point I was making. Americans would have been GRATEFUL to France for defeating England for us, but we wouldn't be the country we are today if that's the way it had happened...


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 12:41:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes you need a leg up and a little help, even when not asked... I was directing my comments more to Sharpy, though.

Nomatter what, call it what you want, those people are more free now than they ever were with Saddam, and they're thanking us for it.


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 01:31:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the questions you are asking are the wrong ones.


I already drew the comparison between Hitler and Saddam witha few minor differences.


What does it take to geta a madman out of power in these times?

A. They have to invade at least three countries one to include your own(France?.... Germany?).

B. Call the US and tell them that there is some ass to be kicked and some people to be liberated.


Saddam made an attempt on our former presidents life.

Saddam used chemical and biological weapons on his own people, and on iranian troops.

Saddmas sons were madmen allowed to run free and do what they wished: I.E. killing people on a whim, raping women, etc... yeah, they loved that eh?

Saddam incarcerated, tortured and killed anyone who opposed or spoke out against him. Great crys coming out there yeah? You tell me, why didn't they ask for help?


At the first sign of the Americans not leaving because we actualy saw Iraqi troops without thier arms in the air and fired on them, they all surrendered... there is some will power there, oh yeah, they REALLY believed in Saddam.

Diplomacy DID NOT WORK! what did the last 12 years teach anyone? They fired missiles at us, kicked the UN inspectors out, rang air raid sirens when they came into town, delayed inspections, crossed the DMZ and no fly zone with military vehicles, threatened war, among other things.


How much does it actualy take? They invaded another country (or two) and we finaly took action, but did not finish it. I am sure all of his neighbors (Syria included) are breathing great breaths of relief, let alone his own people.



You tell me, do we belong there? Because if we dont then who does? Hitler?



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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 02:12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BIODragon wrote:

Saddam incarcerated, tortured and killed anyone who opposed or spoke out against him. Great crys coming out there yeah? You tell me, why didn't they ask for help?


Freedom ain't free. Why should we risk our lives if they won't risk theirs? Confused


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 02:17:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SharpShooter wrote:



Saddam is not stupid....he could've launch the WMDs (if he have it) on the allies bases in Kuwait or all around the Middle East. Why didn't he eventhough he'd received ultimatum? He has nothing to loose...He knew he would loose the fight either ways.


First, whats up Will...Long time no see...

Now, on to the business...

You asked, and I quote,"Why didn't he fire his weapons(if he have it) when he knew he was gonna be killed or captured."

I respond, why would you give evidence supporting your enemy's claims when all it could do is hurt you...He could've very well fired his weapons at our bases, kuwait or other Middle Eastern countries, but he was too smart for this. He knew very well that if he did this, America would have had a justifiable result of invading Iraq. Those who did not believe before, would have believed now. He was smart enough to take the loss and keep the Anti-War defenders on the US..

With him not proving the US right, he goes down as a man(if you call him that) that only had accusations against him. We go down in alot of peoples books as an Imperialist country. In his books, getting captured was probably the better thing.

Basically, he had two choices...Kill thousands with his weapons or still kill thousands, but without the use of his weapons...The second choice benefits him more.

G


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 02:45:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

operationHIT wrote:
BIODragon wrote:

Saddam incarcerated, tortured and killed anyone who opposed or spoke out against him. Great crys coming out there yeah? You tell me, why didn't they ask for help?


Freedom ain't free. Why should we risk our lives if they won't risk theirs? Confused


Because we're not chicken shit. We've got the technology, and the superiority. We had a much higher success chance with fewer casualties than they did. Only problem now is getting everyone else to realize that.


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 03:03:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mav.... i actually agree with you on this on lol w3rd

2k3 > 2k4



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SharpShooter
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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 03:39:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there are some Iraqis that would thank us for "liberating" them. But how many are there? 10%, 20%, even at 50% that is not good enough. Why don't they stand up now and show the world that they want to be liberated? We had known that Saddam and his cronies tortured their own people since Gulf War 1, why didn't we acted then? Again, how can you be so sure that its neighboring country are relieved? We do not belong there, the Iraqis do, why don't they now step up and be responsible for their future? They're using us to fight their war. If we don't think UN as a useful organization, why do we now "beg" them to go into Iraq? better yet, why do we still want to be in there? North Koreans are suffering because of the communism, why don't we go there with our powerful troops and liberate them? Their regime is bad, I'm sure there will be someone there to thank us. You said the people will be in control? who are these people? people who is appointed by the Allies? Do you think they have credibilities in the Iraqis eyes? Again don't get me wrong here, I'm glad that Saddam is now captured. What I don't like is we as a great nation is too arogant to apologize for our mistake. We said they have WMD and went in, when we couldn't find it, we use the freedom of the people as an excuse (That the people will be happy if Saddam is toppled). Let's go to North Korea, right? Let's go to Chechnya. I'm not trying to defend Saddam or Terorist in any way, I just think that we made a mistake (saying that they have WMDs), we have to admit that. Admiting that you made a mistake is what make you great and it's not by trying to find another excuse to justify what you did. If we had plainly said that "We are going to invade Iraq to liberate them in the first place then I would have argued differently." I kept bringing Haliburton up...it is just there....and which lawyer will pick the case? It is not an absurd notion, it's a concern that needs to be addressed....Is this a country that is being ran by Company(ies) or by the people or by a personal political agenda (because a relative was targeted when he visited Iraq)? Probably trying to prove a point "Don't mess with Texas?". Come on don't be so naive.....If you're the Libyan President, what will you do? say " I will still support Terorism?" and risked being invaded? No....you would say "We are figthing terorism" but still support it under the table. I agree G, it benefitted him more. That exactly what he wants and we fell for it. Now think about this for a second, a fanatic muslims, do you think he/she will think that America is a saviour? No, they will think that Americans are arrogant and violated their rights. This is where I think terorist struck a point. This is what they want. We can argue forever if the war is justifiable...but the fact of the matter is....we had bad intelligence and we screwed up...admit and apologize....and since we're already there....finish what we do, make it better than how they were, and get out of there. What we arguing now couldn't change the past...let's just move on and learn from mistakes. We won a battle but to win the war, it needs more than brute force.

"Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts" - Albert Einstein
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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 03:41:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you forget videos of the Iraqi people tearing down Saddam statues.



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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 04:17:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SharpShooter wrote:
Yes, there are some Iraqis that would thank us for "liberating" them. But how many are there? 10%, 20%, even at 50% that is not good enough. Why don't they stand up now and show the world that they want to be liberated? We had known that Saddam and his cronies tortured their own people since Gulf War 1, why didn't we acted then? Again, how can you be so sure that its neighboring country are relieved? We do not belong there, the Iraqis do, why don't they now step up and be responsible for their future? They're using us to fight their war. If we don't think UN as a useful organization, why do we now "beg" them to go into Iraq? better yet, why do we still want to be in there? North Koreans are suffering because of the communism, why don't we go there with our powerful troops and liberate them? Their regime is bad, I'm sure there will be someone there to thank us. You said the people will be in control? who are these people? people who is appointed by the Allies? Do you think they have credibilities in the Iraqis eyes? Again don't get me wrong here, I'm glad that Saddam is now captured. What I don't like is we as a great nation is too arogant to apologize for our mistake. We said they have WMD and went in, when we couldn't find it, we use the freedom of the people as an excuse (That the people will be happy if Saddam is toppled). Let's go to North Korea, right? Let's go to Chechnya. I'm not trying to defend Saddam or Terorist in any way, I just think that we made a mistake (saying that they have WMDs), we have to admit that. Admiting that you made a mistake is what make you great and it's not by trying to find another excuse to justify what you did. If we had plainly said that "We are going to invade Iraq to liberate them in the first place then I would have argued differently." I kept bringing Haliburton up...it is just there....and which lawyer will pick the case? It is not an absurd notion, it's a concern that needs to be addressed....Is this a country that is being ran by Company(ies) or by the people or by a personal political agenda (because a relative was targeted when he visited Iraq)? Probably trying to prove a point "Don't mess with Texas?". Come on don't be so naive.....If you're the Libyan President, what will you do? say " I will still support Terorism?" and risked being invaded? No....you would say "We are figthing terorism" but still support it under the table. I agree G, it benefitted him more. That exactly what he wants and we fell for it. Now think about this for a second, a fanatic muslims, do you think he/she will think that America is a saviour? No, they will think that Americans are arrogant and violated their rights. This is where I think terorist struck a point. This is what they want. We can argue forever if the war is justifiable...but the fact of the matter is....we had bad intelligence and we screwed up...admit and apologize....and since we're already there....finish what we do, make it better than how they were, and get out of there. What we arguing now couldn't change the past...let's just move on and learn from mistakes. We won a battle but to win the war, it needs more than brute force.


The paragraph break is your friend. Please use it.


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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 04:20:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really never knew there was such thing as a run-on paragraph. Shocked



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PostPosted: 29 Jul 2004 04:23:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SharpShooter wrote:
Yes, there are some Iraqis that would thank us for "liberating" them. But how many are there? 10%, 20%, even at 50% that is not good enough. Why don't they stand up now and show the world that they want to be liberated? We had known that Saddam and his cronies tortured their own people since Gulf War 1, why didn't we acted then? Again, how can you be so sure that its neighboring country are relieved? We do not belong there, the Iraqis do, why don't they now step up and be responsible for their future? They're using us to fight their war. If we don't think UN as a useful organization, why do we now "beg" them to go into Iraq? better yet, why do we still want to be in there? North Koreans are suffering because of the communism, why don't we go there with our powerful troops and liberate them? Their regime is bad, I'm sure there will be someone there to thank us. You said the people will be in control? who are these people? people who is appointed by the Allies? Do you think they have credibilities in the Iraqis eyes? Again don't get me wrong here, I'm glad that Saddam is now captured. What I don't like is we as a great nation is too arogant to apologize for our mistake. We said they have WMD and went in, when we couldn't find it, we use the freedom of the people as an excuse (That the people will be happy if Saddam is toppled). Let's go to North Korea, right? Let's go to Chechnya. I'm not trying to defend Saddam or Terorist in any way, I just think that we made a mistake (saying that they have WMDs), we have to admit that. Admiting that you made a mistake is what make you great and it's not by trying to find another excuse to justify what you did. If we had plainly said that "We are going to invade Iraq to liberate them in the first place then I would have argued differently." I kept bringing Haliburton up...it is just there....and which lawyer will pick the case? It is not an absurd notion, it's a concern that needs to be addressed....Is this a country that is being ran by Company(ies) or by the people or by a personal political agenda (because a relative was targeted when he visited Iraq)? Probably trying to prove a point "Don't mess with Texas?". Come on don't be so naive.....If you're the Libyan President, what will you do? say " I will still support Terorism?" and risked being invaded? No....you would say "We are figthing terorism" but still support it under the table. I agree G, it benefitted him more. That exactly what he wants and we fell for it. Now think about this for a second, a fanatic muslims, do you think he/she will think that America is a saviour? No, they will think that Americans are arrogant and violated their rights. This is where I think terorist struck a point. This is what they want. We can argue forever if the war is justifiable...but the fact of the matter is....we had bad intelligence and we screwed up...admit and apologize....and since we're already there....finish what we do, make it better than how they were, and get out of there. What we arguing now couldn't change the past...let's just move on and learn from mistakes. We won a battle but to win the war, it needs more than brute force.


We can never win the whole population..When America decided for a revolution, there was more than a handful of people that wanted to remain loyal to England, why? Because they got special priviledges that others didn't...Same goes for Iraq, others had it alot better and they wanted to keep saddam...You can't wim em' all...I put money that more than half of the population is happy we liberated them...

For N. Korea, that is a whole nother story...They have done the same tempting crap...Saying they are building nuclear reactors, threatening and(i think) going into the Demilitrized Zone...Is it our job to go in there and relieve the people and South Korea from them? Well, we first must deal with whats on our plate...Which at the moment, is alot..

G


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